Episode Transcript
[0:00:02 – 0:00:11] Adam: Minnesota saw a 58% decline of the moose population in the northeastern part of the state between 2006 and 2017.
[0:00:12 – 0:00:22] Adam: A primary agent of decline is brainworm, a parasite that degrades the animal’s nervous system, ultimately leading to a slow death of starvation and or hypothermia.
[0:00:23 – 0:00:31] Adam: Whitetail deer brought brainworm to northern Minnesota, and humans changed northern Minnesota into a wilderness more suitable for the deer.
[0:00:33 – 0:00:44] Adam: Researchers from the University of Minnesota and the Grand Portage Band of Lake Superior Chippewa recently found evidence that moose in Minnesota consume snails, which are known hosts for the brainworm parasite.
[0:00:46 – 0:00:47] Adam: I’m going to try the Latin here.
[0:00:48 – 0:00:50] Adam: Parilla, Phostrongylus tenuus.
[0:00:51 – 0:00:52] Adam: Nailed it.
[0:00:53 – 0:01:00] Adam: Although consumption of gastropods, slugs and snails, has long been considered the mode by which moose become infected with brainworms,
[0:01:01 – 0:01:06] Adam: This is the first study to clearly document the deer-to-snail-to-moose spillover sequence in a natural setting.
[0:01:08 – 0:01:11] Adam: This week on Tumble Home, we face some difficult truths.
[0:01:12 – 0:01:21] Adam: Brutally hot summers, milder winters, the destruction of old-growth forests, white-tailed deer, timber wolves, and brain worms.
[0:01:44 – 0:01:44] UNKNOWN: Thank you.
[0:01:59 – 0:02:03] Adam: Welcome to Tumble Home Boundary Waters Podcast.
[0:02:03 – 0:02:04] Adam: My name is Adam.
[0:02:04 – 0:02:10] Adam: Joining me here tonight in the shed is my moose enthusiast, dear friend, Eric.
[0:02:10 – 0:02:11] Adam: Hello, Eric.
[0:02:11 – 0:02:11] Adam: Thank you for being here.
[0:02:12 – 0:02:12] Erik: Hello.
[0:02:12 – 0:02:13] Erik: We’re back.
[0:02:13 – 0:02:14] Adam: We’re back, baby.
[0:02:14 – 0:02:14] Adam: Yeah.
[0:02:16 – 0:02:17] Erik: Just like we said we would be.
[0:02:18 – 0:02:18] Adam: It’s you.
[0:02:19 – 0:02:19] Adam: It’s me.
[0:02:19 – 0:02:20] Adam: It’s Guidaise.
[0:02:21 – 0:02:21] Erik: Guidaise.
[0:02:23 – 0:02:26] Adam: John H., if you’re out there, I’m very sorry.
[0:02:27 – 0:02:28] Adam: Or I nailed it.
[0:02:28 – 0:02:29] Adam: I don’t know.
[0:02:29 – 0:02:30] Erik: Guidaise.
[0:02:30 – 0:02:31] Erik: Guidaise.
[0:02:31 – 0:02:34] Erik: I think he’s just an Italian gentleman.
[0:02:37 – 0:03:05] Erik: uh tonight’s episode is also brought to you by another what now what flavor did you get tonight i still have a mingled i got a ginger lime this actually has a little bit of uh something in it oh boy does it well in terms of like actual like content for the body got five grams of protein yeah just it’s a it’s a protein drink no it’s uh i don’t know you guys got these at the co-op
[0:03:05 – 0:03:06] Adam: It’s a poppy.
[0:03:06 – 0:03:07] Adam: Oh, it’s poppy.
[0:03:07 – 0:03:08] Adam: Poppy.
[0:03:08 – 0:03:09] Adam: Ginger.
[0:03:10 – 0:03:11] Erik: Poppy peed on my sofa.
[0:03:12 – 0:03:14] Erik: It’s ginger lime.
[0:03:14 – 0:03:16] Erik: It’s a prebiotics soda.
[0:03:16 – 0:03:18] Erik: I’m all about the prebiotics now.
[0:03:18 – 0:03:23] Erik: I told you I ate an entire jumbo container of the Siggy’s Icelandic style.
[0:03:23 – 0:03:25] Adam: Yeah, why would you do that?
[0:03:25 – 0:03:26] Adam: You’re very heroic.
[0:03:26 – 0:03:30] Erik: I just kept going, and then all of a sudden it was almost gone, and I was…
[0:03:31 – 0:03:33] Adam: Really, what I want to know is why haven’t I done this?
[0:03:33 – 0:03:34] Erik: Yeah, I don’t know.
[0:03:35 – 0:03:35] Erik: It’s so good.
[0:03:36 – 0:03:44] Erik: It is incredibly good, and it’s got a lot of good protein, and I ate it with a bunch of grape nuts.
[0:03:45 – 0:03:46] Erik: Hell yeah.
[0:03:46 – 0:03:48] Erik: Hell yeah, brother.
[0:03:48 – 0:03:55] Erik: An insane amount of fiber and an insane amount of thick, concentrated milk protein.
[0:03:55 – 0:03:57] Adam: Looking good, feeling good, Eric.
[0:03:57 – 0:03:57] Adam: Cheers.
[0:03:57 – 0:03:57] Adam: Cheers.
[0:03:58 – 0:04:05] Erik: Yeah, I took what I imagined to be a 75-year-old version of a bowel movement today.
[0:04:05 – 0:04:10] Erik: Let’s just leave it there.
[0:04:10 – 0:04:12] Adam: Too much protein.
[0:04:12 – 0:04:12] Adam: Wow.
[0:04:14 – 0:04:17] Adam: You know who’s eating too much protein is these indigo buntings.
[0:04:18 – 0:04:19] Adam: Get out of here, guys.
[0:04:20 – 0:04:21] Erik: Oh, it’s so gingery.
[0:04:22 – 0:04:23] Erik: You ever seen one of these things?
[0:04:23 – 0:04:23] Erik: And also so limey.
[0:04:23 – 0:04:24] Adam: The buntings, yeah.
[0:04:24 – 0:04:25] Adam: They’re indigo, right?
[0:04:25 – 0:04:26] Adam: They’re blue.
[0:04:26 – 0:04:27] Adam: Yeah.
[0:04:27 – 0:04:28] Adam: Blue bunting.
[0:04:29 – 0:04:31] Adam: Passerina cyanea.
[0:04:31 – 0:04:33] Adam: That’s how they say that, too.
[0:04:34 – 0:04:42] Adam: Winters in the Middle American and Caribbean, where it frequently gathers in flocks of weedy fields.
[0:04:42 – 0:04:43] Adam: Weedy or weety?
[0:04:43 – 0:04:44] Adam: Weedy.
[0:04:44 – 0:04:46] Adam: Yeah.
[0:04:46 – 0:04:46] Adam: Yeah.
[0:04:48 – 0:04:52] Adam: I’ll tell you what, breeds in shrubby areas at the edge of forest and fields.
[0:04:52 – 0:04:53] Adam: I’ll tell you what.
[0:04:53 – 0:04:57] Adam: We’ve been getting them around the house and around the tumble shed here a lot lately.
[0:04:58 – 0:04:58] Adam: They’re bunting.
[0:04:58 – 0:05:00] Adam: They’re bunting, and they’re blue.
[0:05:00 – 0:05:01] Adam: Oh, my God.
[0:05:01 – 0:05:06] Adam: That’s your official bird of the week here on Tumble Home.
[0:05:07 – 0:05:08] Erik: Protein there coming over on the mic.
[0:05:08 – 0:05:10] Erik: I’m sure you all heard that light.
[0:05:11 – 0:05:13] SPEAKER_00: One of those internal burps, you know?
[0:05:14 – 0:05:16] Adam: Yeah, you got to lean away when you do that.
[0:05:16 – 0:05:18] Erik: Yeah, well, it’s my first day.
[0:05:20 – 0:05:20] Erik: I haven’t learned.
[0:05:21 – 0:05:22] Adam: We don’t know where these came from.
[0:05:22 – 0:05:29] Adam: They were once again, we found them laying outside the tumble shed, and they’re ice cold, strangely.
[0:05:29 – 0:05:29] Erik: Steve Glamour.
[0:05:29 – 0:05:32] Adam: It’s kind of, for the time of year, it’s a little warm.
[0:05:33 – 0:05:38] Adam: It’s a little humid out there tonight, and these beers and poppy sodas are ice cold.
[0:05:38 – 0:05:39] Adam: Poppy.
[0:05:39 – 0:05:40] Adam: It’s a little alarming.
[0:05:40 – 0:05:44] Erik: Yeah, the poppy is teeth-chatteringly cold.
[0:05:45 – 0:05:48] Adam: But we’re not going to ask too many questions.
[0:05:48 – 0:05:49] Adam: We’re just going to enjoy them.
[0:05:49 – 0:05:51] Adam: Delicious cold beverage.
[0:05:51 – 0:05:53] Erik: Never ask questions.
[0:05:53 – 0:05:55] SPEAKER_00: Don’t ask those questions.
[0:05:57 – 0:05:57] Erik: What’s new with you?
[0:05:59 – 0:06:03] Erik: Besides the protein and fiber onslaught?
[0:06:03 – 0:06:03] Erik: Yeah.
[0:06:05 – 0:06:06] Adam: What’s the best thing you cooked this week?
[0:06:07 – 0:06:08] Erik: For other people or…
[0:06:09 – 0:06:09] Erik: Either or.
[0:06:09 – 0:06:14] Erik: I haven’t cooked something for myself in like 16 weeks.
[0:06:15 – 0:06:15] Erik: Oh, no.
[0:06:16 – 0:06:18] Adam: I spend all my time… Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches again.
[0:06:18 – 0:06:20] Erik: Yeah, no, it is literally just…
[0:06:22 – 0:06:50] Erik: buckets of yogurt and granola cold just sitting in my car eating it because i have the main reason i had to eat the whole container was because i bought it and then realized i didn’t have access to a refrigerator for another like 10 hours yeah so i’m like well might as well probably just down it all of this yeah i don’t want it to go to waste i just had i cut up like a whole melon the other day and there’s a bunch of that left over i just ate that and then like a bowl of cereal that wasn’t
[0:06:51 – 0:06:53] Adam: And then, oh, I did have a blueberry bagel later.
[0:06:54 – 0:07:02] Erik: Yeah, I’ve been eating a lot of cereals and yogurts and fruit, like a lot of berries, I should say.
[0:07:03 – 0:07:04] Adam: Oh, we’re fancy.
[0:07:04 – 0:07:05] Erik: And a lot of peanut butter.
[0:07:05 – 0:07:17] Erik: My God, my body, I don’t know what’s going on, but if the jar of peanut butter is within arm’s reach, I am pulling it close to my mouth and eating at least a cup of it.
[0:07:18 – 0:07:21] Adam: Okay, you got to tell me though, is it crunchy or creamy?
[0:07:21 – 0:07:21] Erik: I go both.
[0:07:21 – 0:07:22] Erik: I prefer crunchy.
[0:07:22 – 0:07:23] Adam: All right, I knew you did.
[0:07:23 – 0:07:24] Adam: I knew you were cool.
[0:07:24 – 0:07:26] Adam: Yeah, especially, yeah.
[0:07:26 – 0:07:27] Adam: I knew, yeah.
[0:07:28 – 0:07:34] Erik: I especially like it when, you know, it’s been sitting like on the passenger seat, you know, in the sun.
[0:07:34 – 0:07:35] Erik: Yeah.
[0:07:35 – 0:07:37] Erik: It’s got a little bit of that warmth to it.
[0:07:37 – 0:07:45] Adam: Did you know that when you have a child in the state of Minnesota that the state just ships you buckets of peanut butter in the mail?
[0:07:45 – 0:07:45] Adam: Really?
[0:07:46 – 0:07:47] Adam: Yeah, they just keep coming.
[0:07:47 – 0:08:02] Erik: uh every week government issue peanut butter it’s not like a brand or anything no it’s like the dharma initiative it just says crunchy peanut butter it just has just shows up in your mailbox every week the sparkling enamel biden smiling on it yeah
[0:08:05 – 0:08:28] Adam: thanks thanks brandon yeah just just that look that he gave to the reporters as he turned to the right and kind of gave him that smile yeah you’re about to leave and somebody gets out the ice cream cones he’s like yeah yeah yeah they do not the government doesn’t ship you ice cream cones i can guarantee you that no that’s why you’re having children you you’ve chosen poorly you’re not getting the ice cream cones
[0:08:29 – 0:08:37] Erik: I also saw that you can buy buckets of dehydrated rations at Costco now.
[0:08:38 – 0:08:39] Erik: 25-year supply.
[0:08:40 – 0:08:41] Adam: Oh, Costco’s getting into preppers, huh?
[0:08:42 – 0:08:42] Erik: I guess.
[0:08:43 – 0:08:44] Erik: They are.
[0:08:44 – 0:08:44] Erik: I don’t know.
[0:08:45 – 0:08:45] Adam: What’s it coming?
[0:08:45 – 0:08:47] Adam: It’s just a bucket of ration?
[0:08:47 – 0:08:53] Erik: It’s just a bucket of ration that you can use then also as a toilet, I think.
[0:08:53 – 0:08:54] Adam: Or a seat.
[0:08:54 – 0:08:55] Erik: Yeah.
[0:08:55 – 0:08:58] Erik: I don’t know how it didn’t look like that big of a bucket, though.
[0:08:58 – 0:08:59] Erik: I’m like 25 years.
[0:09:00 – 0:09:02] Adam: What kind of heart attack is that?
[0:09:02 – 0:09:04] Erik: Yeah, just like a kernel of grain a day.
[0:09:04 – 0:09:05] Erik: Yeah, sure.
[0:09:05 – 0:09:07] Erik: I could make that last 25 years, but it didn’t.
[0:09:08 – 0:09:13] Adam: I mean, Steve Clymer can survive on that, but probably I can’t.
[0:09:13 – 0:09:15] Adam: I don’t have that kind of metabolism.
[0:09:15 – 0:09:21] Erik: Could you imagine how much it’d be like a full lifetime supply of food you could get in that Whipsnake?
[0:09:21 – 0:09:21] UNKNOWN: Whip.
[0:09:22 – 0:09:24] Erik: All the way at the top, all the way to the bottom.
[0:09:24 – 0:09:26] Erik: Just packed with Costco rations.
[0:09:26 – 0:09:28] Adam: Humiliate your rations.
[0:09:28 – 0:09:30] Erik: Humiliate, devastate the rations.
[0:09:32 – 0:09:34] Adam: Yeah, that’s how you fit them in the bucket.
[0:09:34 – 0:09:35] Adam: You got to devastate them first.
[0:09:35 – 0:09:38] Erik: Yeah, I devastated my colon the other day.
[0:09:40 – 0:09:41] Erik: Oh, my God.
[0:09:41 – 0:09:41] Adam: Oh, no.
[0:09:41 – 0:09:44] Erik: That’s why they tune in to listen to the old health chat.
[0:09:44 – 0:09:44] Erik: They love it.
[0:09:45 – 0:09:45] Erik: Yeah.
[0:09:45 – 0:09:46] Adam: All right.
[0:09:46 – 0:09:49] Adam: Well, let’s talk about all the moose dying.
[0:09:49 – 0:09:50] Adam: Oh, yeah.
[0:09:50 – 0:09:53] Adam: Do you have any other news or notes in your notes there?
[0:09:53 – 0:09:54] Adam: I don’t know.
[0:09:54 – 0:09:54] Erik: He’s got no notes.
[0:09:55 – 0:09:55] Erik: I know.
[0:09:56 – 0:09:57] Erik: I guess we can talk about that.
[0:09:58 – 0:10:02] Adam: The research on moose diets and the quick, you ever heard of a quick gloss snail?
[0:10:03 – 0:10:04] Adam: What’s your snail knowledge?
[0:10:04 – 0:10:07] Adam: What do you know about gastropods over there, Eric?
[0:10:07 – 0:10:09] Erik: I’ve eaten an escargot or two.
[0:10:09 – 0:10:09] Adam: Have you?
[0:10:09 – 0:10:10] Adam: Yes.
[0:10:10 – 0:10:10] Adam: Oh.
[0:10:10 – 0:10:12] Erik: More like escar-no.
[0:10:12 – 0:10:12] Adam: Oh, no.
[0:10:12 – 0:10:13] Adam: We know?
[0:10:13 – 0:10:13] Adam: No.
[0:10:15 – 0:10:15] Erik: Yeah, they’re fine.
[0:10:15 – 0:10:16] Erik: I don’t know.
[0:10:16 – 0:10:19] Erik: I like the little tools that you get to use when you’re eating them.
[0:10:19 – 0:10:19] Erik: The little grabber.
[0:10:19 – 0:10:20] Adam: They never escargot.
[0:10:20 – 0:10:21] Adam: Yeah.
[0:10:21 – 0:10:22] Adam: Oh.
[0:10:22 – 0:10:24] Erik: In Paris, you know, when in Rome.
[0:10:24 – 0:10:25] Adam: When in Paris.
[0:10:25 – 0:10:26] Adam: When in Paris.
[0:10:26 – 0:10:28] Adam: They get them right out of the River Seine.
[0:10:28 – 0:10:32] Erik: Yeah, they just scrape them off the side of that dirty river and feed them to the tourists.
[0:10:32 – 0:10:33] Erik: They got the river walls.
[0:10:33 – 0:10:33] Erik: Yeah.
[0:10:34 – 0:10:35] Adam: They scrape them.
[0:10:35 – 0:10:36] Adam: Yeah.
[0:10:36 – 0:10:37] Adam: Scrape them and saute them.
[0:10:37 – 0:10:38] Adam: That’s what they say.
[0:10:38 – 0:10:38] Adam: Yeah.
[0:10:38 – 0:10:39] Erik: Scrape them and saute them.
[0:10:40 – 0:10:43] Adam: That’s how Ratatouille came up in the snail game.
[0:10:43 – 0:10:44] Erik: So he came up in the ranks.
[0:10:44 – 0:10:47] Adam: That’s how he got up into the hat to begin with.
[0:10:47 – 0:10:48] Adam: He’s so good at snailing.
[0:10:48 – 0:10:48] Adam: Yeah.
[0:10:49 – 0:10:51] Adam: We talked a lot about sea urchins.
[0:10:51 – 0:10:53] Adam: We’ve talked about oyster shuckers on the show before.
[0:10:53 – 0:10:57] Adam: We never really talked about French river snail scrapers.
[0:10:57 – 0:10:57] Erik: Yeah.
[0:10:57 – 0:11:01] Erik: If there’s any Parisians out here listening, I’m sure they’re- They’re nodding in approval.
[0:11:01 – 0:11:01] Erik: They know.
[0:11:02 – 0:11:02] Erik: Yeah, they know.
[0:11:02 – 0:11:03] Erik: This is how we do it.
[0:11:04 – 0:11:04] Erik: They’ve got the-
[0:11:07 – 0:11:34] Adam: versions that they give to the tourists and then they’ve got the versions that they give to the locals and you know that those come from two different places absolutely um i’m not gonna bury the lead this week uh it’s the quick gloss snail that’s what everybody needs to send their hate mail to is that the title of the episode just title it quick gloss snail boo boo this snail this snail this snail is the one uh that forms the link
[0:11:35 – 0:12:03] Adam: This is one of the links between white-tailed deer and moose, and that is the subject of the article that was published in the Journal of Wildlife Diseases in 2023, authored by Tiffany Wolfe, professor of College of Veterinarian Medicine at the University of Minnesota, and Seth Moore, director of biology and environment for the Grand Portage Band of Lake Superior Chippewa.
[0:12:03 – 0:12:06] Adam: We will, of course, offer up the link in the show notes.
[0:12:07 – 0:12:15] Adam: And this episode featured more source material that did inform the previous episode slightly, but we will include…
[0:12:15 – 0:12:20] Adam: There’s going to be a couple extra links in the show notes and some good reading if you’re interested in this subject.
[0:12:21 – 0:12:26] Adam: And, of course, this silly podcast is no substitute for doing the reading.
[0:12:26 – 0:12:29] Adam: If you really find this interesting, I recommend you check out those links.
[0:12:31 – 0:12:33] Adam: Nothing in there that’s too challenging.
[0:12:33 – 0:12:36] Adam: There’s some stuff in there I certainly didn’t understand, though, on this one.
[0:12:36 – 0:12:38] Adam: So take it as you will.
[0:12:39 – 0:12:50] Adam: Quoto, quote, The Grand Portage Band of Chippewa has been leading extensive efforts to restore moose in Minnesota for nearly 18 years to support the vital lifeways of the Anishinaabe, said Moore.
[0:12:51 – 0:12:58] Adam: The overall goal is to conduct population-level applied research and restoration so that the great-grandchildren of our children…
[0:12:58 – 0:13:05] Adam: Seven generations from now, we’ll continue to be able to use our natural resources as our great-grandparents were able to do.
[0:13:06 – 0:13:14] Adam: We incorporated traditional ecological knowledge and modern science in our practices to best steward our natural resources.
[0:13:15 – 0:13:16] Adam: What do you think of that?
[0:13:16 – 0:13:19] Adam: A little bit of the old gods and the new.
[0:13:20 – 0:13:20] Erik: Yeah.
[0:13:20 – 0:13:26] Adam: Trying to figure it out because something ain’t right out there, and it’s these damn snails.
[0:13:27 – 0:13:27] Erik: Yeah.
[0:13:27 – 0:13:28] Erik: Are you pointing at me?
[0:13:30 – 0:13:30] Erik: Stop pointing.
[0:13:31 – 0:13:31] Erik: Yeah.
[0:13:31 – 0:13:32] Erik: I don’t know.
[0:13:35 – 0:13:36] Erik: I don’t want to say too much.
[0:13:37 – 0:13:38] Adam: Yeah.
[0:13:38 – 0:13:39] Adam: Save your comments for later, I guess.
[0:13:39 – 0:13:41] Erik: I’m not too hopeful for our children’s grandchildren.
[0:13:42 – 0:13:45] Adam: Eight generations from now, will they still have moose here in Minnesota?
[0:13:45 – 0:13:47] Erik: I think that’ll be the least of their problems.
[0:13:48 – 0:13:50] Adam: Jesus, what is going on?
[0:13:51 – 0:13:51] Adam: What is going on?
[0:13:52 – 0:13:56] SPEAKER_00: The crazy bread is sane.
[0:13:57 – 0:13:58] Adam: It’s normal.
[0:13:58 – 0:14:00] Adam: What’s the biggest moose you’ve ever seen?
[0:14:00 – 0:14:00] Erik: The biggest moose?
[0:14:00 – 0:14:01] Erik: Yeah.
[0:14:01 – 0:14:03] Erik: I don’t know if I’ve ever really been like, wow, that is a really big one.
[0:14:03 – 0:14:04] Erik: The big one.
[0:14:04 – 0:14:05] Erik: They all just seem like huge to me.
[0:14:06 – 0:14:06] Adam: Right.
[0:14:06 – 0:14:06] Erik: I don’t know.
[0:14:07 – 0:14:13] Erik: I mean, I guess I’ve seen some bull moose, like when they’ve got the full, you know, the fall.
[0:14:13 – 0:14:13] Erik: Right.
[0:14:13 – 0:14:14] Erik: Big moose.
[0:14:15 – 0:14:40] Erik: the rack the big old rack i don’t know that makes them look bigger but i think they are also bigger if it’s foggy they’re even twice as big as normal yeah if it’s like close to like dusk yeah they’re real big you know i don’t know when they’re on land they always seem like way bigger right we’ve seen a lot swimming and it’s just like well that’s big and then you see them clamber up onto shore it’s like oh god look at that that thing’s all legs they’re like a furry iceberg
[0:14:40 – 0:14:40] Erik: Yeah.
[0:14:41 – 0:14:41] Erik: Oh, yeah.
[0:14:42 – 0:14:44] Erik: Furry, hollow hair.
[0:14:44 – 0:14:44] Erik: Nice.
[0:14:44 – 0:14:46] Adam: A lot of hollow hair.
[0:14:47 – 0:14:53] Adam: Me and Scott, we worked together in 2011, you, me, and Scott.
[0:14:53 – 0:14:59] Adam: And we were getting up real early, like 5 a.m. to go, I think, like fish Aspen or something.
[0:14:59 – 0:15:00] SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
[0:15:00 – 0:15:04] Adam: And we were going by the West Bearskin Public Access there.
[0:15:05 – 0:15:10] Adam: And there was the biggest damn moose I’ve ever seen in my life right there.
[0:15:10 – 0:15:13] Adam: Standing just like on the edge of the road.
[0:15:13 – 0:15:14] Adam: Bogino?
[0:15:14 – 0:15:16] Adam: It was a Bogino beast.
[0:15:16 – 0:15:16] Erik: Boganhoe?
[0:15:17 – 0:15:18] Adam: Boganhoe beast.
[0:15:18 – 0:15:20] Erik: The old Boganhoe beast.
[0:15:20 – 0:15:22] Adam: The old Boganhoe beast.
[0:15:22 – 0:15:25] Adam: Legends passed down.
[0:15:25 – 0:15:26] Adam: 37 trillion tons.
[0:15:28 – 0:15:31] Adam: 19,000 points on its rack.
[0:15:32 – 0:15:32] Erik: Yeah.
[0:15:32 – 0:15:33] Adam: Full of fog and felt.
[0:15:34 – 0:15:35] Erik: The 60-point moose.
[0:15:35 – 0:15:36] Adam: Yeah, it was crazy.
[0:15:36 – 0:15:39] Adam: It was just like, it never even budged.
[0:15:39 – 0:15:40] Adam: We just drove by.
[0:15:40 – 0:15:41] Adam: We were like, holy ass.
[0:15:41 – 0:15:42] Erik: Yeah, just keep driving.
[0:15:42 – 0:15:42] Adam: It was incredible.
[0:15:45 – 0:15:56] Adam: According to the published report, moose in northeastern U.S. and southeastern Canada are threatened by a localized extinction, meaning once the moose are gone, they won’t be back in any of our lifetimes.
[0:15:56 – 0:15:58] Erik: All right.
[0:15:59 – 0:16:01] Adam: Do you have a laugh track we can plug into this, Eric?
[0:16:01 – 0:16:03] Erik: All right.
[0:16:04 – 0:16:05] Erik: Still hot out there?
[0:16:05 – 0:16:06] Erik: Oh, gosh.
[0:16:06 – 0:16:07] Erik: Did you catch the game last night?
[0:16:08 – 0:16:08] Erik: Sports.
[0:16:11 – 0:16:19] Adam: But reading Seth Moore’s quote offers some hope that maybe we can figure this out and somehow save the moose in Grand Portage and the BWCA.
[0:16:19 – 0:16:21] Adam: It could still go either way.
[0:16:22 – 0:16:36] Adam: While there are many factors working against moose in northern Minnesota, the leading cause of death in the adult herd is indeed brainworm, a multi-host parasite that originates in white-tailed deer who carry the brainworm but don’t suffer any ill effects from them.
[0:16:37 – 0:16:38] Adam: Very convenient.
[0:16:38 – 0:16:39] Erik: Hmm.
[0:16:41 – 0:16:45] Adam: These illegal immigrants to the North Shore, Eric.
[0:16:46 – 0:16:47] Adam: Oh, my God.
[0:16:47 – 0:16:49] Adam: I mean, they are.
[0:16:49 – 0:16:50] Adam: But so are we.
[0:16:51 – 0:16:52] Adam: Aren’t we?
[0:16:53 – 0:16:54] Adam: I think we’ve called…
[0:16:55 – 0:17:01] Erik: I think we’ve… We don’t want to get in trouble with the Facebook crowd again, Eric.
[0:17:01 – 0:17:03] Erik: No, not them.
[0:17:03 – 0:17:06] Adam: They’re really on our asses about that still.
[0:17:06 – 0:17:07] Adam: That was like 10 years ago.
[0:17:07 – 0:17:07] Adam: Let it go.
[0:17:07 – 0:17:09] Erik: At this point, yeah, pretty much.
[0:17:09 – 0:17:09] Erik: Jesus.
[0:17:12 – 0:17:18] Adam: It originates in the white-tailed deer who carry the brain worm but don’t suffer any ill effects from them.
[0:17:19 – 0:17:24] Adam: The parasite travels from deer feces to snails and then to moose.
[0:17:24 – 0:17:31] Adam: We know they are the leading cause of death because so many of the collared moose in that study have been killed by brain worm.
[0:17:32 – 0:17:33] Adam: It’s been a lot.
[0:17:34 – 0:17:35] Adam: In 2023, a story published on NPR.org?
[0:17:41 – 0:17:44] Adam: I don’t have it written down, actually, but Minnesota Public Radio.
[0:17:46 – 0:17:49] Adam: It’s on their website, and we will post the show.
[0:17:49 – 0:17:51] Adam: We will post the link in the show notes.
[0:17:51 – 0:17:52] Erik: We will post the show on NPR.
[0:17:52 – 0:17:54] Adam: We will post our show into their links.
[0:17:55 – 0:17:56] Adam: Yes.
[0:17:56 – 0:18:01] Adam: 2023 NPR story outlined the bizarre behavior brainworm can cause in moose.
[0:18:02 – 0:18:08] Adam: Several years ago, scientists were baffled when someone found a collared moose swimming in circles in Lake Superior.
[0:18:09 – 0:18:12] Adam: The moose just kept swimming in circles until it died.
[0:18:12 – 0:18:17] Adam: The brain and spinal cord were examined by a pathologist at the University of Minnesota.
[0:18:18 – 0:18:20] Adam: The creature was infested with brainworm.
[0:18:20 – 0:18:28] Adam: According to this story, 25% of the adult moose deaths in Minnesota are caused by brainworm, an alarmingly high number.
[0:18:29 – 0:18:39] Adam: If a collared moose doesn’t move for more than six hours, the scientists monitoring them send a team and, according to this story, they usually find a dead moose.
[0:18:40 – 0:18:46] Adam: The collared moose study revealed that brain worm was killing a lot more adult moose than wolves or human hunters combined.
[0:18:48 – 0:18:51] Adam: Are you interested at all in how the brain worm kills?
[0:18:51 – 0:18:52] Adam: I am.
[0:18:54 – 0:19:18] Erik: i thought it was just like is it i mean sure it’s very scientific to a certain extent is it is it like actually like a legitimate worm you cut them open you can see worms yeah it is unfortunately it’s crazy so it’s just like they basically like get into their bloodstream by eating them uh the snails or whatever that have it yeah and then like they effectively like cough it up and then
[0:19:20 – 0:19:40] Adam: it gets they like breathe it in it’s in their like uh intestines because they ate it but then somehow it always forces them to cough it up and then they inhale it which that’s the trigger is how it gets into the brain itself and then they use what’s the what’s the upside for the worms
[0:19:42 – 0:19:43] Erik: What are they doing?
[0:19:43 – 0:19:45] Erik: Are they eating the brain?
[0:19:45 – 0:19:47] Erik: Are they using it to reproduce?
[0:19:47 – 0:19:49] Erik: Are they nesting?
[0:19:49 – 0:19:50] Adam: Yeah.
[0:19:50 – 0:19:52] Adam: You have to read the studies on this one.
[0:19:52 – 0:19:56] Adam: I had it in the notes and I took it all out because it was like too much information.
[0:19:56 – 0:19:57] Erik: Yeah.
[0:19:57 – 0:19:58] Adam: There’s like five steps.
[0:19:58 – 0:19:59] Adam: Oh, God.
[0:19:59 – 0:20:02] Adam: And multi-host parasites are not my specialty.
[0:20:02 – 0:20:02] Erik: No.
[0:20:03 – 0:20:04] Adam: Big surprise.
[0:20:04 – 0:20:06] Erik: I don’t think they should be anybody’s specialty.
[0:20:06 – 0:20:10] Adam: Somebody is out there listening to the show and they’re like, that’s my specialty though.
[0:20:10 – 0:20:10] Adam: Yeah.
[0:20:10 – 0:20:12] Adam: And I really think they’re neat.
[0:20:12 – 0:20:21] Erik: Yeah, I just, all I can picture in my mind is barrels of bleach and or gasoline.
[0:20:21 – 0:20:22] Adam: Right.
[0:20:23 – 0:20:32] Adam: Well, like I said, I mean, this same thing happens exactly the same way in deer and nothing, for whatever reason, their brains are made out of Swiss cheese.
[0:20:32 – 0:20:33] Adam: Yeah.
[0:20:33 – 0:20:36] Adam: And they can just, you know.
[0:20:36 – 0:20:39] Adam: Just tunnel around in there as long as they want.
[0:20:39 – 0:20:40] Adam: Nothing happens to them.
[0:20:40 – 0:20:41] Erik: You’ve seen those things.
[0:20:41 – 0:20:43] Erik: There’s nothing behind the eyes.
[0:20:44 – 0:20:49] Erik: Drive down the road, you look and it’s just the dumbest.
[0:20:49 – 0:20:50] Adam: We all know someone like that.
[0:20:50 – 0:20:54] Adam: A person like that?
[0:20:55 – 0:20:55] Adam: Deer.
[0:20:55 – 0:20:57] Adam: I’m talking about my deer acquaintances.
[0:20:57 – 0:20:59] Erik: We all know a deer like that.
[0:20:59 – 0:20:59] Adam: We all know a deer like that.
[0:20:59 – 0:21:01] Adam: It just looks dumber than rocks.
[0:21:02 – 0:21:10] Adam: After the eggs hatch inside the moose’s brain, the worms tunnel around, and unlike in deer, they cause serious neurological damage.
[0:21:11 – 0:21:15] Adam: Brain-wormed moose show telltale signs of infestations.
[0:21:16 – 0:21:19] Adam: They walk in aimless circles, the head tilted to one side.
[0:21:20 – 0:21:27] Adam: Adult worms manta and cause damage to other parts of the central nervous system, including the cranial nerves and the eyes.
[0:21:27 – 0:21:34] Adam: The damage can manifest in moose as swaying and weakness in the hindquarters, blindness, inability to stand.
[0:21:35 – 0:21:40] Adam: They usually die either of styvration or hypothermia from loss of body fat.
[0:21:41 – 0:21:42] Adam: It’s a weird way to go.
[0:21:43 – 0:21:44] Erik: Yeah, what…
[0:21:44 – 0:21:45] Erik: I don’t even…
[0:21:45 – 0:21:47] Adam: I’m not sure there’s actually a cure.
[0:21:47 – 0:21:52] Adam: Like, okay, if this was happening in humans or whatever, would they be able to treat this?
[0:21:53 – 0:21:53] Adam: I don’t know.
[0:21:54 – 0:21:57] Adam: Generally, with moose, they can’t catch it until the things are dead.
[0:21:57 – 0:21:57] Erik: Well, yeah.
[0:21:57 – 0:22:00] Erik: What are you going to do?
[0:22:00 – 0:22:02] Adam: Is that something you can actually stop?
[0:22:03 – 0:22:09] Adam: Is it just something where… Because moose and the brain worm don’t mix well, that it’s always going to end badly?
[0:22:09 – 0:22:09] Adam: Yeah.
[0:22:10 – 0:22:10] Erik: It sounds like it.
[0:22:11 – 0:22:11] Erik: I don’t know.
[0:22:11 – 0:22:14] Erik: Yeah, what I have no idea what you could do except for
[0:22:16 – 0:22:18] Erik: Uh, get rid of these damn snails.
[0:22:19 – 0:22:22] Adam: So they did, there’s another study, which we’re not going to talk about.
[0:22:22 – 0:22:31] Adam: I don’t have a lot of notes on this, um, in the show tonight, but they had tracked it to like, where are the moose and the deer coming together the most?
[0:22:32 – 0:22:35] Adam: And they found these like mineral licks is what they call this.
[0:22:35 – 0:22:43] Adam: It’s a seepage in the ground and a deer moose are in there and they’re both feeding and pooping together.
[0:22:44 – 0:22:44] Adam: Yeah.
[0:22:44 – 0:23:09] Adam: and they were thinking like okay well if we can identify that this is where like a lot of the transfer is happening maybe we can like somehow work to limit that yeah either by just you know discouraging the white-tailed deer or the moose from coming to those spots or in some way eradicating the snails that are the vector and this is naturally occurring
[0:23:09 – 0:23:10] Adam: Yeah, exactly.
[0:23:10 – 0:23:17] Adam: And when I first read that, I was like, I can’t say that I’ve ever seen anything like that out in the Boundary Waters.
[0:23:17 – 0:23:19] Adam: I don’t know what a mineral lick is.
[0:23:19 – 0:23:24] Erik: Sure, but I was just wondering, it’s not like people put out the salt licks.
[0:23:24 – 0:23:48] Adam: in their backyard i think it sort of is the same concept like but it’s not something that it’s just like all right tell people to stop doing that it’s just right it’s not like they’re feeding them it’s just yeah it’s something that they find in nature where it attracts both moose and deer when they’re in the same area so we just need to get yeah some of these areas where deer and moose are it’s weird though like i never really understood that deer and moose ate that many gastropods
[0:23:49 – 0:24:12] Adam: i would have not it’s a huge part of their diet apparently i just thought they were eating you know leaves and seaweed or whatever yeah that’s i mean that’s what i always assumed it was just greens no but apparently they go nuts for these snails they’re everywhere you’re going crazy for the snails eric uh yeah no i don’t know that seems like an interesting uh
[0:24:14 – 0:24:42] Adam: uh solution i guess i don’t know what would you do like spray down the mineral lick with uh i don’t know yeah hose it down with bleach just bleach it down there’s plenty of other species which will i have some notes on later that also are proven to host brain worm and that are probably uh in the diets of moose they just haven’t yet established that lick that link like they have with the click the quick gloss nail well how’d they know is it quick quick
[0:24:42 – 0:24:45] Adam: gloss snail, which is a really tricky one to say.
[0:24:45 – 0:24:53] Erik: Yeah, I wouldn’t want to give any kind of a presentation at a snail symposium on this particular snail.
[0:24:53 – 0:24:56] Adam: They’re probably going to play this episode at the snail symposium.
[0:24:56 – 0:25:01] Erik: Yeah, our voices are probably booming over an empty amphitheater as we speak, speak, speak.
[0:25:02 – 0:25:05] Erik: Snail mail, do you hear us?
[0:25:05 – 0:25:06] Erik: We hear you.
[0:25:07 – 0:25:08] Adam: What’s the snail call?
[0:25:08 – 0:25:09] Adam: I don’t know.
[0:25:12 – 0:25:12] Adam: They’re excited.
[0:25:12 – 0:25:14] Erik: Yeah.
[0:25:14 – 0:25:18] Erik: Honestly, these deer with brain worms, do they have the same?
[0:25:18 – 0:25:19] Erik: I just don’t understand.
[0:25:19 – 0:25:23] Erik: How are they not being affected by worms just burrowing around in their brains?
[0:25:24 – 0:25:27] Erik: It doesn’t seem like anybody’s brain is going to be doing too well.
[0:25:27 – 0:25:28] Adam: They’re pebble chewers.
[0:25:28 – 0:25:30] Adam: I mean, they’re simpletons.
[0:25:31 – 0:25:31] Erik: All right.
[0:25:31 – 0:25:32] Erik: Well, I’m in this brain now.
[0:25:32 – 0:25:33] Erik: Better start a tunneling.
[0:25:34 – 0:25:36] Adam: Better start tunneling so I get pooped out.
[0:25:37 – 0:25:38] Adam: I don’t know how that happens either.
[0:25:38 – 0:25:40] Adam: It’s just in your blood at that point.
[0:25:40 – 0:25:41] Erik: It’s the parasite thing you were talking about.
[0:25:42 – 0:25:42] Adam: It’s so gross.
[0:25:43 – 0:25:54] Adam: Anyways, they were able to prove, though, that due to using DNA, that the moose were indeed ingesting this specific kind of snail.
[0:25:55 – 0:25:59] Adam: The study used a genetic metabarcoding approach.
[0:26:00 – 0:26:02] Erik: Oh, yeah.
[0:26:02 – 0:26:08] Adam: They had 258 geo-referenced and temporally stratified moose fecal samples, Eric.
[0:26:09 – 0:26:10] Erik: Temporally stratified.
[0:26:10 – 0:26:11] Adam: What the hell does that mean?
[0:26:13 – 0:26:13] Adam: I don’t know.
[0:26:14 – 0:26:17] Adam: They’re very scientifically collected moose poop.
[0:26:17 – 0:26:18] Adam: Yeah.
[0:26:18 – 0:26:19] Adam: Quote.
[0:26:19 – 0:26:21] Erik: I’m sure you can get on that crew.
[0:26:21 – 0:26:22] Adam: That one, they don’t care.
[0:26:22 – 0:26:25] Adam: They’re like, hey, you don’t want to go on the helicopter.
[0:26:25 – 0:26:25] Adam: Trust us.
[0:26:25 – 0:26:27] Adam: You want to go scrape the poop.
[0:26:27 – 0:26:31] Erik: You should send Joe Frederick another text so he can get on that one.
[0:26:31 – 0:26:33] Adam: You think you can get me on the fecal crew?
[0:26:33 – 0:26:33] Adam: Absolutely.
[0:26:33 – 0:26:34] Adam: Absolutely.
[0:26:35 – 0:26:35] Adam: I am already on it.
[0:26:36 – 0:26:37] Adam: When can you join us?
[0:26:38 – 0:26:39] Adam: Yeah, join us.
[0:26:39 – 0:26:42] Erik: I’m out here right now.
[0:26:42 – 0:26:43] Erik: We’re always recruiting.
[0:26:43 – 0:26:46] Adam: Not enough people are interested in the fecal crew.
[0:26:46 – 0:26:48] Erik: Everybody wants to get on the helicopter.
[0:26:48 – 0:26:49] Erik: And take pretty pictures.
[0:26:49 – 0:26:51] Adam: Yeah.
[0:26:51 – 0:26:53] Adam: You get all sorts of fancy equipment.
[0:26:53 – 0:26:54] Adam: You’re about to find out, Eric.
[0:26:55 – 0:26:55] Adam: You get a bag.
[0:26:55 – 0:26:55] Erik: You get a shovel.
[0:26:56 – 0:26:56] Erik: You get a shovel.
[0:26:57 – 0:26:58] Adam: No, you’re about to find out.
[0:26:58 – 0:26:58] Adam: I’m not kidding.
[0:26:59 – 0:27:00] Adam: I have a lot of information.
[0:27:00 – 0:27:03] Erik: One of those little grabber things that people that can’t reach up use.
[0:27:03 – 0:27:06] Adam: It’s the little dinosaur, like the T-Rex face.
[0:27:06 – 0:27:08] Erik: That’s how they pick up the moose.
[0:27:08 – 0:27:10] Erik: The little grabber with just a little T-Rex mouth for fun.
[0:27:11 – 0:27:15] Adam: Quote, we detected moose consumption of three gastropods.
[0:27:15 – 0:27:20] Adam: One, the quick-gloss snail, is a species of small, air-breathing land snail.
[0:27:20 – 0:27:22] Adam: They are a well-documented host of brainworm.
[0:27:23 – 0:27:28] Adam: There are other known gastropods that harbor brainworm, including the marsh slug.
[0:27:30 – 0:27:31] Adam: Marsh slug.
[0:27:31 – 0:27:33] Adam: I don’t like any of these.
[0:27:33 – 0:27:35] Adam: Why are they making these names so hard on me?
[0:27:35 – 0:27:35] Adam: I don’t know.
[0:27:35 – 0:27:36] Erik: Slugs and snails.
[0:27:36 – 0:27:37] Erik: They’re out for me.
[0:27:37 – 0:27:39] Adam: You ever hear of the forest disc?
[0:27:41 – 0:27:43] Erik: Why is that also so hard to say?
[0:27:43 – 0:27:44] Adam: Forest disc.
[0:27:45 – 0:27:47] Adam: This whole episode is just a struggle.
[0:27:48 – 0:27:52] Erik: That’s another… Also, air-breathing snail?
[0:27:52 – 0:27:53] Erik: Yeah, I know.
[0:27:53 – 0:27:54] Erik: As opposed to what?
[0:27:55 – 0:27:57] Erik: Non-air-breathing?
[0:27:58 – 0:28:00] Adam: Hydrogen-sucking snail?
[0:28:00 – 0:28:01] Adam: I don’t know.
[0:28:01 – 0:28:02] Adam: Do they have lungs?
[0:28:02 – 0:28:02] Adam: Lungs?
[0:28:04 – 0:28:04] Erik: Oh, my God.
[0:28:05 – 0:28:05] Adam: I promise you this.
[0:28:05 – 0:28:08] Adam: We will never do a book report on snails.
[0:28:08 – 0:28:11] Adam: This is as much snail content as you’re ever getting, Tumble Homies.
[0:28:12 – 0:28:14] Adam: We’re never going deeper than this on snails.
[0:28:14 – 0:28:15] Adam: I don’t want to know.
[0:28:15 – 0:28:17] Erik: I wish I would have eaten more of them now that I had the opportunity.
[0:28:17 – 0:28:18] Erik: Bring them on.
[0:28:18 – 0:28:19] Erik: I want to eat more.
[0:28:19 – 0:28:19] Erik: Yes.
[0:28:19 – 0:28:22] Erik: I have no idea what a forest disc is.
[0:28:22 – 0:28:23] Erik: What’s a forest disc?
[0:28:23 – 0:28:24] Adam: Do you know?
[0:28:25 – 0:28:27] Adam: It’s some sort of snail or slug.
[0:28:27 – 0:28:28] Adam: Ugh.
[0:28:28 – 0:28:32] Erik: Have you ever come across a snail?
[0:28:32 – 0:28:34] Erik: I’ve seen plenty of slugs, but a snail?
[0:28:35 – 0:28:36] Adam: I don’t feel like I have.
[0:28:37 – 0:28:37] Erik: Yeah.
[0:28:37 – 0:28:38] Erik: I mean, you always see the slugs.
[0:28:38 – 0:28:47] Erik: You leave a pack on the ground, and you go to move it in the morning, and it’s got a bunch of those nasty gray slugs that just love that damp, kind of cool.
[0:28:47 – 0:28:53] Adam: I found some on my beans, and I had to sprinkle the pellets to discourage them, Eric.
[0:28:54 – 0:28:55] Adam: What kind of pellets?
[0:28:55 – 0:28:56] Adam: Anti-snail pellets.
[0:28:57 – 0:28:58] Erik: They just don’t like the feel of it?
[0:28:59 – 0:28:59] Erik: It kills them.
[0:29:00 – 0:29:00] Erik: Yeah.
[0:29:00 – 0:29:01] Erik: Just like salt?
[0:29:01 – 0:29:03] Erik: I don’t know.
[0:29:03 – 0:29:06] Adam: That’s a different kind of mineral lick, if you know what I mean.
[0:29:06 – 0:29:07] Adam: Poison kind.
[0:29:07 – 0:29:09] Erik: Yeah, the poison kind.
[0:29:10 – 0:29:11] Adam: Get off my beans, how about?
[0:29:12 – 0:29:14] Adam: You got the whole forest to work with.
[0:29:15 – 0:29:16] Adam: You don’t need to be in my beans.
[0:29:17 – 0:29:18] Adam: Yeah, legit.
[0:29:19 – 0:29:20] Adam: There’s one more.
[0:29:20 – 0:29:21] Adam: This one’s really good, too.
[0:29:21 – 0:29:23] Adam: The oval amber snail.
[0:29:25 – 0:29:26] Erik: That sounds normal.
[0:29:26 – 0:29:27] Adam: That one is the best one of the bunch, actually.
[0:29:28 – 0:29:30] Erik: They actually gave it a decent color, amber.
[0:29:30 – 0:29:31] Erik: You know, come on.
[0:29:31 – 0:29:32] Erik: We all love 311.
[0:29:32 – 0:29:38] Adam: They believe that they’re eating all of these, but the study found no evidence of them in the moose diets.
[0:29:39 – 0:29:47] Adam: The study was conducted on the Grand Portage Reservation and some public lands west of the reservation on the Rango Road.
[0:29:48 – 0:30:00] Adam: The Grand Portage tribal lands cover 192 square kilometers, and the reservation is located on the transition between the boreal and mixed conifer hardwoods forest biomes.
[0:30:01 – 0:30:07] Adam: Moose density on the reservation averaged 0.26 individuals per square kilometer.
[0:30:07 – 0:30:09] Adam: Square kilometer is not that much.
[0:30:09 – 0:30:09] Erik: No.
[0:30:10 – 0:30:17] Adam: So, like, let’s say there’s one per four, one, if it’s 0.26 per, so it’s like one.
[0:30:17 – 0:30:18] Erik: Now we’re doing math.
[0:30:18 – 0:30:21] Adam: One moose per four kilometers squared.
[0:30:21 – 0:30:22] Adam: Does that sound right?
[0:30:23 – 0:30:23] UNKNOWN: Yeah.
[0:30:24 – 0:30:24] Erik: Yeah, yeah.
[0:30:24 – 0:30:25] Erik: I mean.
[0:30:25 – 0:30:26] Adam: That seems like a lot of moose.
[0:30:27 – 0:30:30] Erik: Yeah, that’s like a one moose and two square miles kind of roughly.
[0:30:30 – 0:30:31] Adam: Pretty good.
[0:30:31 – 0:30:33] Adam: Oh, so last week.
[0:30:33 – 0:30:34] Adam: Oh, my.
[0:30:34 – 0:30:35] Adam: Time for something special.
[0:30:37 – 0:30:41] Adam: Last week, I showed you the map of all the plots.
[0:30:42 – 0:30:43] Erik: Like Guadice again, is it?
[0:30:43 – 0:30:44] Adam: No, we’re not going to gooey-deech you.
[0:30:45 – 0:30:52] Adam: I am going to give you a little bit of gooey-deech because this is a moose fecal sample detailed map.
[0:30:52 – 0:30:53] SPEAKER_00: Okay.
[0:30:53 – 0:30:53] Erik: Check it out.
[0:30:53 – 0:30:54] Erik: As long as it’s a map.
[0:30:54 – 0:31:11] Adam: It’s a map of all the locations where they took each geo-referenced fecal sample on the entirety of the reservation and, like I said, some of the national forest lands to the west.
[0:31:12 – 0:31:14] Erik: Wow, they picked up a lot of samples.
[0:31:15 – 0:31:18] Adam: Yeah, a lot of these are from the collared moose.
[0:31:18 – 0:31:22] Adam: So they would follow a collared moose around on their radios.
[0:31:22 – 0:31:24] Adam: They’re not radios, Adam.
[0:31:24 – 0:31:29] Adam: On their GPS units and then be like, okay, there’s one that’s been around this general area for a while.
[0:31:29 – 0:31:30] Erik: We’re going to go in there and hunt.
[0:31:30 – 0:31:33] Erik: Because they had to be fresh, obviously.
[0:31:33 – 0:31:38] Adam: Had to be fresh fecal samples in order to get good DNA out of them.
[0:31:38 – 0:31:39] Erik: Does that make sense?
[0:31:39 – 0:31:59] Adam: yeah i mean the fresher the better fresher the better which map did you like better the survey map or the fecal map do you ever think we oh my god steve climber is rolling his grave over this one yeah he’s he’s twitching in his uh whip snake whip snakes
[0:31:59 – 0:32:01] Erik: I don’t know if I have a favorite.
[0:32:03 – 0:32:04] Adam: Both pretty cool maps.
[0:32:05 – 0:32:07] Adam: We can agree they’re both pretty cool maps.
[0:32:08 – 0:32:12] Adam: The poop was collected from May through October.
[0:32:13 – 0:32:17] Adam: Generally is their moose sampling time frame.
[0:32:17 – 0:32:19] Erik: Does that have to do with when the snails are around?
[0:32:19 – 0:32:24] Adam: I think it is, yeah, because in the winter they bury themselves deep into the muck and mire.
[0:32:24 – 0:32:24] Adam: Deep in the shag.
[0:32:25 – 0:32:25] Adam: Yikes.
[0:32:27 – 0:32:28] Adam: Here we go.
[0:32:28 – 0:32:29] Adam: We’ve got some gear for you.
[0:32:29 – 0:32:34] Adam: To maximize the efficiency of moose fecal sampling, they use GPS collars.
[0:32:35 – 0:32:36] Adam: Do you know where these are made?
[0:32:36 – 0:32:37] Adam: I will tell you.
[0:32:38 – 0:32:40] Adam: Vectronic Aerospace, Berlin, Germany.
[0:32:40 – 0:32:41] Erik: Oh, wow.
[0:32:41 – 0:32:43] Adam: That’s where our GPS collars come from.
[0:32:43 – 0:32:44] Adam: Isn’t that a fun fact?
[0:32:44 – 0:32:52] Adam: I guess so when it comes up on small change in two weeks you can thank me for letting you know what was the name of the company again
[0:32:53 – 0:32:54] Adam: Vectronic Aerospace.
[0:32:54 – 0:32:55] Adam: Okay.
[0:32:55 – 0:32:56] Adam: This is not investment advice.
[0:32:57 – 0:33:00] Adam: This is not financial advice.
[0:33:00 – 0:33:09] Adam: This is not financial advice, but their Vectronic Aerospace out of Berlin, Germany, supplies all the Moose GPS collars in the world.
[0:33:09 – 0:33:09] Erik: Yep.
[0:33:10 – 0:33:12] Adam: So, you know, they got that going for them, which is nice.
[0:33:14 – 0:33:17] Adam: These were deployed via helicopter capture on 48 Moose,
[0:33:19 – 0:33:28] Adam: For other ongoing studies led by the Grand Portage Band, they also did collect, quote, opportunistic samples from uncolored moose and deer.
[0:33:29 – 0:33:30] Erik: So just happenstance?
[0:33:30 – 0:33:33] Adam: Yeah, they’re out there and they’re like, that one looks pretty fresh.
[0:33:34 – 0:33:34] Adam: What do you think?
[0:33:35 – 0:33:35] Erik: Still warm.
[0:33:36 – 0:33:37] Adam: I think we better grab it.
[0:33:38 – 0:33:44] Adam: All the samples were collected with fresh nitrile gloved hand and placed in a sterile bag.
[0:33:45 – 0:33:50] Adam: The name of the bag they used, which is not important, but it’s so funny I had to include it.
[0:33:51 – 0:33:52] Adam: Whirlpacks.
[0:33:53 – 0:33:54] Adam: Whirlpacks.
[0:33:54 – 0:33:55] Adam: W-H?
[0:33:55 – 0:33:56] Adam: Whirl?
[0:33:56 – 0:33:57] Adam: Whirlpack.
[0:33:57 – 0:34:00] Adam: And pack is P-A-K. Oh, yeah.
[0:34:00 – 0:34:00] Adam: Yeah.
[0:34:01 – 0:34:03] Adam: This is a very special bag.
[0:34:03 – 0:34:05] Adam: It’s sterile.
[0:34:05 – 0:34:06] Adam: The Whirlpack.
[0:34:06 – 0:34:10] Adam: And the best part of all this is these are made in Madison, Wisconsin.
[0:34:11 – 0:34:11] Erik: Oh, nice.
[0:34:12 – 0:34:13] Erik: Not Berlin.
[0:34:13 – 0:34:17] Erik: Probably for other fecal matters, I’m assuming.
[0:34:17 – 0:34:19] Adam: Yeah, they’re made by Oscar Mayer.
[0:34:20 – 0:34:27] Adam: This is how they store the hot dog van.
[0:34:27 – 0:34:30] Adam: When they winterize that thing, they store it in a Whirlpack.
[0:34:30 – 0:34:31] Erik: Yeah, what line of work are you in?
[0:34:32 – 0:34:37] Erik: I make shit bags for sterile shit bags.
[0:34:38 – 0:34:39] Adam: I work for Whirlpack.
[0:34:40 – 0:34:40] Adam: Yeah.
[0:34:40 – 0:34:41] Erik: That sounds cool.
[0:34:41 – 0:34:42] Adam: What is that?
[0:34:43 – 0:34:44] Adam: Moose fecal bags.
[0:34:45 – 0:34:45] Erik: Yeah.
[0:34:46 – 0:34:47] Adam: Three words.
[0:34:47 – 0:34:48] Adam: Three words.
[0:34:48 – 0:34:50] Adam: Moose fecal bags.
[0:34:51 – 0:34:53] Adam: Well, this has been a fun dinner party.
[0:34:53 – 0:34:55] Adam: I think I’m going to head back.
[0:34:57 – 0:35:00] Adam: To Fitchburg, it’s been fun.
[0:35:00 – 0:35:04] Adam: Thanks for having us over for the meatloaf and kale Caesar salad.
[0:35:04 – 0:35:06] Erik: Thank you for the meatloaf.
[0:35:07 – 0:35:16] Adam: After collection, the samples are immediately stored on ice until they can be moved to a negative 20 degrees Celsius storage freezer at the end of the day.
[0:35:16 – 0:35:18] Adam: Wow.
[0:35:20 – 0:35:21] Adam: Wow.
[0:35:21 – 0:35:24] Adam: Using a Power Fecal Pro Kit.
[0:35:24 – 0:35:24] Adam: I know.
[0:35:24 – 0:35:25] Adam: Oh, my God.
[0:35:25 – 0:35:31] Adam: Also made in Germany, they extract DNA from each sample following the manufacturer’s protocol.
[0:35:31 – 0:35:31] Adam: Thank you.
[0:35:31 – 0:35:32] Erik: Oh, my God.
[0:35:32 – 0:35:33] Erik: Thank you, manufacturer.
[0:35:33 – 0:35:39] Adam: After DNA extraction, the samples are submitted to the University of Minnesota Genomics Center.
[0:35:40 – 0:35:44] Adam: And we have to skip the rest of this page because…
[0:35:45 – 0:35:52] Adam: They’re talking about agarose electrophoresis gel imaging and thermocycling of the DNA.
[0:35:53 – 0:35:54] Adam: I can’t understand anything.
[0:35:54 – 0:35:57] Adam: There was literally pages and pages of that mumbo jumbo.
[0:35:57 – 0:35:58] Adam: Yeah.
[0:35:58 – 0:35:58] Adam: Skipping it all.
[0:35:58 – 0:36:01] Erik: They’re collecting fecal matter and they’re finding it.
[0:36:01 – 0:36:02] Adam: Putting it in a nice bag.
[0:36:02 – 0:36:03] Adam: Freezing it.
[0:36:03 – 0:36:04] Erik: Putting it in a very nice bag.
[0:36:04 – 0:36:07] Erik: The same bag that they parked the Oscar Mayer Wienermobile in.
[0:36:07 – 0:36:07] Erik: Exactly.
[0:36:08 – 0:36:08] Adam: Exactly.
[0:36:08 – 0:36:09] Erik: When it’s off season.
[0:36:09 – 0:36:14] Adam: And then inside the Oscar Meyer mobile, they have the power fecal pro kit.
[0:36:14 – 0:36:15] Adam: Yes.
[0:36:15 – 0:36:17] Adam: Which I cannot believe that’s a real thing.
[0:36:17 – 0:36:18] Adam: Literally on my phone.
[0:36:18 – 0:36:19] Adam: Power fecal pro.
[0:36:19 – 0:36:24] Adam: Power fecal pro kit is how they extract DNA from feces.
[0:36:24 – 0:36:27] Erik: And that’s what they’re using to determine that they are in fact eating the.
[0:36:27 – 0:36:35] Adam: And that’s how the power fecal pro kit illuminated that there was snail DNA in the moose.
[0:36:35 – 0:36:37] Erik: They’re eating the, what are they again?
[0:36:38 – 0:36:40] Adam: The quick gloss snail.
[0:36:40 – 0:36:42] Adam: They’re lousy with the brain worm.
[0:36:42 – 0:36:43] SPEAKER_00: Okay.
[0:36:43 – 0:36:45] Adam: But none of the other ones are?
[0:36:45 – 0:36:49] Adam: They just never found the DNA definitive proof.
[0:36:49 – 0:36:49] Erik: Sure.
[0:36:50 – 0:36:52] Erik: So you can’t hate on the forest disc?
[0:36:52 – 0:36:54] Adam: The forest disc is clean.
[0:36:54 – 0:36:54] Erik: Okay.
[0:36:55 – 0:36:55] Adam: All right?
[0:36:55 – 0:36:56] Adam: It might be lousy.
[0:36:56 – 0:36:59] Adam: It might have a lot of brain worm, but it’s not passing it on.
[0:36:59 – 0:37:00] Erik: As of right now, it’s clean.
[0:37:01 – 0:37:04] Adam: It’s not on the list of troublesome snails.
[0:37:04 – 0:37:05] Adam: Yeah.
[0:37:05 – 0:37:06] Adam: Yeah.
[0:37:06 – 0:37:07] SPEAKER_00: Oh, no.
[0:37:08 – 0:37:10] Adam: Forest Discs, we’re still friends.
[0:37:10 – 0:37:12] Adam: Nice.
[0:37:12 – 0:37:15] Erik: Well, if I ever come across one, I’ll let it go.
[0:37:16 – 0:37:20] Adam: Catch, photo, and release next time you see a Forest Disc.
[0:37:20 – 0:37:25] Erik: Next time I see a glossy… Quick Glossy.
[0:37:26 – 0:37:26] Erik: Such a dumb name.
[0:37:27 – 0:37:28] Adam: It is honestly a dumb name.
[0:37:29 – 0:37:34] Adam: Whatever scientist out there found those things and decided on that, you could have dropped the Quick.
[0:37:35 – 0:37:37] Adam: Unless that was your last… Maybe that was their last name.
[0:37:37 – 0:37:38] Adam: Dr. Quick.
[0:37:38 – 0:37:38] Adam: Also Quick?
[0:37:39 – 0:37:40] Adam: It’s a snail.
[0:37:40 – 0:37:41] Adam: It’s a glossy snail.
[0:37:41 – 0:37:43] Adam: But my name is Dr. Quick.
[0:37:43 – 0:37:43] Erik: Yeah.
[0:37:44 – 0:37:44] Erik: Quicks.
[0:37:44 – 0:37:45] Erik: Trips.
[0:37:45 – 0:37:49] Erik: It should be Quicks with an apostrophe.
[0:37:50 – 0:37:52] Erik: Quicks Glossy Snail is way easier than the Quick Glossy.
[0:37:52 – 0:37:53] Erik: Way easier.
[0:37:54 – 0:37:54] Erik: And it’s a snail.
[0:37:54 – 0:37:55] Erik: It’s not quick.
[0:37:55 – 0:37:56] Erik: It could never be quick.
[0:37:57 – 0:38:01] Erik: Unless it’s getting whipped out of my hand against a brick wall.
[0:38:01 – 0:38:02] Erik: Right into your mouth.
[0:38:02 – 0:38:04] Erik: Yeah, popping right into my gullet.
[0:38:04 – 0:38:05] Erik: Right out of the bag.
[0:38:05 – 0:38:06] Erik: I’ll take my chances.
[0:38:06 – 0:38:08] Erik: Do they come in a bag or a can?
[0:38:08 – 0:38:10] Erik: My brain is feeling real itchy today, guys.
[0:38:10 – 0:38:12] Adam: These are some real good snails.
[0:38:15 – 0:38:39] Adam: uh anyways it’s that’s just some fine detail that was fun uh you just wanted to talk about all those brand names i would have too i that was probably the most entertaining part of this entire report let’s be honest the pro fecal pack is there like a convention where you go to like shop around for other like fecal con yeah fecal con it’s in berlin every year it’s got to be the germans they love their fecal matter don’t they
[0:38:40 – 0:38:45] Adam: When the later hosinarum bloom, the fecal con will be bumping.
[0:38:46 – 0:38:49] Adam: Actually, yeah.
[0:38:49 – 0:38:51] Adam: Actually, I was going to say something, but I’m not going to say it out loud.
[0:38:52 – 0:38:53] Adam: You don’t have to say every…
[0:38:54 – 0:38:58] Adam: If we know anything about tumbleworm, it’s that you don’t say everything that comes into your mind.
[0:38:58 – 0:39:05] Erik: So there’s Burning Man out in the desert in California, and then there’s just Scat Man in Germany somewhere.
[0:39:09 – 0:39:10] Adam: Anyways, none of that’s really that important.
[0:39:10 – 0:39:28] Adam: What is important is the study collected the 258 moose fecal samples and 48 deer samples, and none of the deer samples included the quick gloss snail, and only a few of the moose samples did, but that was enough.
[0:39:28 – 0:39:31] Adam: to establish a proven link that is new to science.
[0:39:32 – 0:39:32] Adam: How exciting.
[0:39:33 – 0:39:37] Adam: So yeah, the brainworm are a problem for the adult moose.
[0:39:38 – 0:39:40] Adam: But that’s not entirely the full picture here.
[0:39:41 – 0:39:42] Adam: It’s just one piece of it.
[0:39:43 – 0:39:48] Adam: While moose populations are declining, the region’s wolf populations have grown exponentially.
[0:39:49 – 0:39:54] Adam: Warmer winters have also made the northeastern woods hospitable to their primary food source, whitetail deer.
[0:39:55 – 0:40:05] Adam: So when Seth Moore and his team first began studying the moose decline here in 2010, they thought for sure that wolf packs eating adult moose was probably a leading cause.
[0:40:06 – 0:40:11] Adam: And they were right that wolves were a factor, but it wasn’t the adults they were killing.
[0:40:11 – 0:40:15] Adam: Quote, In the spring, moose calves are the easiest thing to eat, Moore said.
[0:40:16 – 0:40:23] Adam: He and his team have since found that 8 out of every 10 moose calves born in northeast Minnesota are now killed by wolves in their first two weeks of life.
[0:40:24 – 0:40:39] Adam: Such a high calf mortality rate Means adult moose aren’t being replenished When they die Couple that with the increasing adult moose deaths And the population enters A rapid downward spiral It’s not good Eric
[0:40:41 – 0:40:45] Adam: So the wolves and the brain worm are both doing significant damage to the moose.
[0:40:45 – 0:40:48] Adam: But let’s take a look at these white-tailed deer.
[0:40:48 – 0:40:49] Adam: They shouldn’t be here at all.
[0:40:50 – 0:40:53] Adam: White-tailed deer and North American moose don’t normally share a habitat.
[0:40:54 – 0:41:00] Adam: The deer’s shorter legs and thinner fur aren’t suited for the deep snow and sub-zero temperatures that moose prefer.
[0:41:01 – 0:41:06] Adam: And until recently, that was the story of northern Minnesota, until it wasn’t anymore.
[0:41:07 – 0:41:11] Adam: Which brings us to the humans and the greed of extractive economies, Eric.
[0:41:12 – 0:41:12] Adam: Oh, no.
[0:41:12 – 0:41:13] Adam: Oh, my God.
[0:41:15 – 0:41:16] Erik: Not again.
[0:41:16 – 0:41:20] Erik: We’re going to leave that for part never.
[0:41:21 – 0:41:22] Erik: Cue the music.
[0:41:26 – 0:41:28] Adam: No, we’re finishing it tonight.
[0:41:28 – 0:41:29] Adam: I don’t want to talk about this anymore.
[0:41:29 – 0:41:32] Adam: This is so sad.
[0:41:33 – 0:41:37] Adam: Ultimately, the deer are doing so well because we leveled the old-growth forests.
[0:41:38 – 0:41:43] Adam: We degraded the moose habitat and allowed the military-industrial complex to burn so many fossil fuels.
[0:41:43 – 0:41:45] Adam: It’s just not looking good.
[0:41:45 – 0:41:52] Adam: We now lean more towards Zone 4 than Zone 3 for gardening, and that’s just a fact that has happened in my lifetime.
[0:41:53 – 0:42:01] Adam: Experts recommend we plant oaks now in the north country to diversify our forest as winters warm and summers feature more extreme heat waves.
[0:42:02 – 0:42:06] Adam: So was it the deer that brought brain worm to the boundary waters or was it us?
[0:42:07 – 0:42:08] Erik: Was it us all along?
[0:42:09 – 0:42:11] Erik: The call came from inside the house.
[0:42:11 – 0:42:11] Adam: I know.
[0:42:13 – 0:42:20] Adam: It really sucks realizing that we are the root of the problem, yet there is nothing that we can really do about it, you or I.
[0:42:20 – 0:42:25] Adam: Here we are in the Anthropocene, swimming in circles, round and round and round.
[0:42:28 – 0:42:32] Adam: And that is the end, but I was like 2 in the morning, and I was like, we can’t end it like that.
[0:42:32 – 0:42:34] Adam: That’s too sad.
[0:42:36 – 0:42:36] Adam: I mean, it is.
[0:42:36 – 0:42:37] Adam: A little too real.
[0:42:38 – 0:42:41] Erik: You have something to bring us back up just a little bit?
[0:42:41 – 0:42:42] Adam: I do.
[0:42:43 – 0:42:48] Adam: So this was ultimately a somber story, and thank you, Tumble Homies, for hanging with us on this one.
[0:42:49 – 0:42:51] Adam: But I think it’s a story we need to tell.
[0:42:51 – 0:42:56] Adam: This is one of my favorite creatures in my favorite place on Earth.
[0:42:56 – 0:43:02] Adam: And maybe that prairie scenario will eventually come to pass here and the moose will be a distant story we tell the youth.
[0:43:03 – 0:43:06] Adam: But I am optimistic and I look forward to the future.
[0:43:06 – 0:43:12] Adam: So let’s zoom way out and end this one with some perspective.
[0:43:13 – 0:43:16] Adam: So we’re going to kind of take a rapid shift here.
[0:43:17 – 0:43:20] Adam: I saw a picture of a tweet from 2021.
[0:43:20 – 0:43:22] Adam: Are you on?
[0:43:22 – 0:43:23] Adam: It doesn’t matter.
[0:43:23 – 0:43:25] Adam: The tweet was by at wait, but why?
[0:43:26 – 0:43:27] Adam: And I wanted to share this.
[0:43:28 – 0:43:31] Adam: And I guess this is probably the first instance of verbal Twitter.
[0:43:31 – 0:43:32] Erik: On the podcast?
[0:43:33 – 0:43:33] Erik: Yeah.
[0:43:33 – 0:43:35] Erik: Verbal twits.
[0:43:35 – 0:43:36] Erik: It’s not printed Reddit.
[0:43:36 – 0:43:37] Erik: Pew, pew, pew.
[0:43:37 – 0:43:38] Erik: Pew, pew, pew.
[0:43:38 – 0:43:38] Erik: Verbal Twitter.
[0:43:39 – 0:43:39] Erik: Verbal Twitter.
[0:43:40 – 0:43:42] Adam: And here’s the tweet.
[0:43:42 – 0:43:44] Adam: It was a two-part tweet.
[0:43:46 – 0:43:57] Adam: The last stars will die out 120 trillion years from now, at most, followed by 10 to the 106th power years of just black holes.
[0:43:58 – 0:44:10] Adam: Condensed, that’s like the universe starting with one second of stars, and then a billion, billion, billion, billion, billion, billion, billion years of just black holes.
[0:44:12 – 0:44:21] Adam: Stars are basically the immediate after effects of the Big Bang, a one-second sizzle of brightness before settling into an essentially endless area of darkness.
[0:44:22 – 0:44:24] Adam: We live in that one bright second.
[0:44:27 – 0:44:38] Adam: And I read that a couple weeks ago, and it’s been kind of like stewing and sizzling in my brain like a burrowing worm ever since.
[0:44:40 – 0:44:41] Adam: Just like a burrowing worm?
[0:44:41 – 0:44:42] Adam: Like how crazy is it really?
[0:44:42 – 0:44:46] Adam: Like when you think of it that way, that is the modern understanding of…
[0:44:48 – 0:45:00] Adam: like an ever-expanding universe, that eventually it will all just be black holes and that mostly the universe will be just a collection of black holes in a multiverse of black holes.
[0:45:01 – 0:45:11] Adam: And really, the era of the stars is just like a snap of the fingers in pretty much an endless and infinite cycle of black holes.
[0:45:11 – 0:45:11] Erik: Yeah.
[0:45:12 – 0:45:19] Adam: So, you know, when you think of it that way, like we’re pretty lucky to have lived in an era where we got to see a moose at all.
[0:45:20 – 0:45:28] Adam: And really like if I have a plumbing issue in my house or something else has gone wrong this week, it ultimately really does not matter at all.
[0:45:29 – 0:45:29] Erik: Yeah.
[0:45:29 – 0:45:32] Adam: When you think about it on that kind of scale.
[0:45:32 – 0:45:34] Adam: So that was like the only way I could get myself to sleep last night.
[0:45:35 – 0:45:36] Erik: Yeah.
[0:45:37 – 0:45:37] Erik: Yeah.
[0:45:38 – 0:45:47] Erik: And that’s the difference between me and you and all of the people who think that there is no difference.
[0:45:47 – 0:45:51] Erik: So let’s go and cut all the trees down and make some money while we’re here.
[0:45:53 – 0:45:54] Erik: Just saying.
[0:45:55 – 0:45:55] Erik: Right.
[0:45:55 – 0:45:59] Erik: That’s I mean, I don’t even know if they think if they’re thinking like that, but you know.
[0:46:00 – 0:46:19] Adam: Well, I mean, I think it is important that we consider the extremes of time, but also realize that while what we are really doing here doesn’t matter and that ultimately if the deer kind of chase the moose a little farther north into Canada, big deal.
[0:46:20 – 0:46:22] Adam: But I don’t know.
[0:46:22 – 0:46:26] Adam: I still like seeing a moose on a Boundary Waters trip, and that does matter to me.
[0:46:27 – 0:46:42] Adam: And if there’s even a chance that we can somehow save this habitat and keep these moose around and that in generations from now that somebody can still go on a trip and see a moose swimming across the lake from their canoe.
[0:46:44 – 0:46:44] Adam: Like, I want that.
[0:46:45 – 0:46:50] Adam: I do want that for the future, and I won’t ever give up on that being a hope.
[0:46:50 – 0:46:51] Adam: That’s good.
[0:46:51 – 0:46:57] Adam: Even though there aren’t nearly as many moose around in just, like, the last 20 years as there used to be, you know.
[0:46:58 – 0:47:02] Adam: For now, it seems like at least that the numbers have stabilized.
[0:47:02 – 0:47:02] Adam: Yeah.
[0:47:02 – 0:47:08] Adam: And maybe they can hang on in Zone 4, you know, when they really prefer Zone 2 or 3, you know.
[0:47:09 – 0:47:09] Adam: Yeah.
[0:47:09 – 0:47:13] Adam: In some form of, like, stable population.
[0:47:13 – 0:47:13] Adam: Yeah.
[0:47:15 – 0:47:18] Adam: Maybe it’s okay that they’re not as easy to see, you know?
[0:47:18 – 0:47:27] Erik: Yeah, I mean, I guess it makes them a little bit more special to a certain extent, but I don’t know.
[0:47:29 – 0:47:32] Adam: I just can’t believe that eventually it’s all going to be black holes forever and ever.
[0:47:33 – 0:47:34] Adam: That’s kind of crazy to think about.
[0:47:34 – 0:47:38] Adam: Then I read this one more thing, and I wanted to get your thoughts on this.
[0:47:40 – 0:47:47] Adam: There is a theory that, well, the leading theory for our universe is that it started with a Big Bang.
[0:47:47 – 0:47:49] Adam: I’m sure you’re familiar with this idea.
[0:47:50 – 0:47:59] Adam: There’s a theory that the universe of that is that each black hole is a new Big Bang in a different dimension.
[0:47:59 – 0:48:00] Erik: Okay.
[0:48:01 – 0:48:02] Adam: Does that, are you following me?
[0:48:03 – 0:48:03] Erik: I’m following you.
[0:48:03 – 0:48:03] Erik: Yeah.
[0:48:03 – 0:48:05] Erik: I don’t know if I’ve ever necessarily heard it, but.
[0:48:06 – 0:48:10] Adam: So I started, I, this is why I was up so late last night.
[0:48:10 – 0:48:21] Adam: I started really reading about like black holes and how they kind of work and why, why they think eventually everything will collapse into black holes that will just be running into each other.
[0:48:21 – 0:48:22] SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
[0:48:24 – 0:48:29] Adam: But yeah, basically they’re saying the singularity at the center of each black hole is a new universe.
[0:48:30 – 0:48:34] Adam: And that is how new Big Bangs begin.
[0:48:34 – 0:48:35] Adam: Okay.
[0:48:36 – 0:48:44] Adam: So the Big Bang happens and everything rapidly expands immediately and then continues expanding forever, which is where we are right now.
[0:48:45 – 0:48:45] Adam: Yeah.
[0:48:45 – 0:48:49] Adam: It’s expanding, but slower and slower is the rate of expansion.
[0:48:50 – 0:48:50] Erik: Sure, yeah.
[0:48:50 – 0:48:53] Adam: Black holes work in the exact reverse.
[0:48:53 – 0:48:57] Adam: When a black hole is formed, they immediately suck in everything near them very fast.
[0:48:57 – 0:49:17] Adam: inward and then slowly over time continue to like grab and pull everything else in their localized area into them but at an ever slowing rate yeah and there is you know you’re familiar with the multiverse and yeah obviously portals so that’s giving you that’s a hopeful thought
[0:49:18 – 0:49:24] Adam: I think so, because it’s like, well, what happens in a universe that’s nothing but black holes forever and ever?
[0:49:25 – 0:49:29] Adam: But if each black hole is a new beginning into a new dimension, I mean, that is kind of neat.
[0:49:29 – 0:49:32] Adam: And I’ve always liked the idea of reincarnation.
[0:49:33 – 0:49:44] Adam: I think when you look at nature and you’re somebody that paddles in a beautiful wilderness, that the idea of reincarnation does make a lot of sense in just how nature works.
[0:49:44 – 0:49:48] Adam: You see it seasonally as winter becomes spring.
[0:49:48 – 0:49:48] Erik: Yeah.
[0:49:49 – 0:49:50] Adam: So I had never read that before.
[0:49:50 – 0:49:52] Adam: Have you ever heard anything like that?
[0:49:53 – 0:50:00] Adam: That basically black holes are the reverse of a Big Bang and that they’re probably somehow connected?
[0:50:00 – 0:50:02] Adam: I had never heard that before.
[0:50:02 – 0:50:08] Erik: I don’t know if I’ve necessarily heard it anywhere in so many words, but I don’t know.
[0:50:08 – 0:50:19] Erik: I’ve never really, uh, thought too much farther beyond like, so you’re thinking, you know, you go in through a black hole and then there’s like an entire new universe in there.
[0:50:19 – 0:50:47] Adam: exactly okay yeah and i guess the best way i’ve heard of like a multiverse describes like each universe is like a blob inside of inside of a brick of swiss cheese or whatever and so yeah like as you have a black hole form in one blob it kind of like shoots all that matter and energy into a new blob in a different dimension yeah i mean there’s it’s kind of like um
[0:50:49 – 0:50:50] Adam: I don’t know.
[0:50:50 – 0:50:55] Adam: It’s kind of like, it’s just insane to think about the magnitude of that.
[0:50:55 – 0:51:05] Adam: But there is some comfort in that, that energy will recycle and build into new forms over time, given enough time.
[0:51:05 – 0:51:10] Erik: If you’re one that believes that that’s what’s happening inside of a black hole.
[0:51:11 – 0:51:12] Adam: I don’t know if I really believe it.
[0:51:12 – 0:51:13] Adam: I just read it last night.
[0:51:13 – 0:51:24] Adam: It seemed very poetic that that would be a solution that made a lot of sense to me, at least, at 2 in the morning last night.
[0:51:24 – 0:51:26] Adam: I was trying to cheer myself up.
[0:51:27 – 0:51:28] Adam: This is how I cheer myself up?
[0:51:28 – 0:51:28] Adam: Yeah.
[0:51:28 – 0:51:29] Erik: What’s wrong with you?
[0:51:29 – 0:51:35] Erik: I mean, isn’t that what everybody’s looking for, though, is something that provides a little bit of…
[0:51:35 – 0:51:36] Erik: I don’t know.
[0:51:37 – 0:51:41] Erik: Like poetry to the seemingly…
[0:51:42 – 0:51:47] Adam: I guess I’ve never heard a really satisfactory other explanation of where do big bangs begin.
[0:51:48 – 0:51:49] Erik: Yeah, no, that’s right.
[0:51:49 – 0:51:53] Adam: We are aware that the big bang is probably the way that everything started.
[0:51:53 – 0:51:55] Erik: Sure, but what happened, what was before it?
[0:51:55 – 0:52:03] Adam: And we are aware that black holes exist and that they suck everything around them into them into where you can never see them again once it goes over the event horizon.
[0:52:03 – 0:52:03] Adam: Yeah.
[0:52:04 – 0:52:09] Adam: We’ve talked about when we moved into the shed, singularities and the shedularity.
[0:52:09 – 0:52:12] Adam: And, you know…
[0:52:12 – 0:52:18] Adam: I don’t know how I’ve, I’m a little bit mad, I guess that I’ve never like myself, like put those two things together.
[0:52:19 – 0:52:22] Adam: They are literally the inverse of each other, a big bang and a black hole.
[0:52:22 – 0:52:27] Adam: We know about both of them, but I had never like even considered that they could be connected.
[0:52:28 – 0:52:28] Erik: Yeah.
[0:52:28 – 0:52:29] Erik: I guess I never really would.
[0:52:29 – 0:52:31] Erik: I never considered that any connection either, you know?
[0:52:32 – 0:52:35] Adam: But, I mean, now that I’ve read that, it makes a lot of sense.
[0:52:36 – 0:52:44] Adam: And it’s a fun one because you’ll never, ever be able to prove that or understand it more than we do right now.
[0:52:44 – 0:52:45] Erik: You don’t think so?
[0:52:45 – 0:52:46] Adam: Well, I don’t know.
[0:52:46 – 0:52:47] Adam: Maybe.
[0:52:47 – 0:52:49] Adam: Maybe we’ll find immortality and…
[0:52:50 – 0:52:51] Adam: Is that what you would want?
[0:52:51 – 0:52:52] Adam: A reverse brain worm.
[0:52:52 – 0:52:56] Adam: No, immortality or infinite timelines.
[0:52:56 – 0:52:57] Adam: Heaven always scared me.
[0:52:57 – 0:52:58] Erik: You don’t want to go to heaven?
[0:52:58 – 0:52:58] Erik: No.
[0:52:59 – 0:53:02] Adam: Heaven always really scared me badly as a child.
[0:53:03 – 0:53:04] Adam: Infinite forever and ever.
[0:53:04 – 0:53:06] Erik: Spend the rest of forever with grandma?
[0:53:06 – 0:53:07] Adam: What are you going to do?
[0:53:08 – 0:53:10] Erik: Another round of kings in the corners, huh?
[0:53:10 – 0:53:10] Adam: I guess you will.
[0:53:11 – 0:53:11] Erik: Yeah, I don’t know.
[0:53:11 – 0:53:13] Erik: There’s – I don’t know.
[0:53:13 – 0:53:34] Erik: The inevitable question mark or in quotes heat death of the universe gives me more comfort than like a potential like – I’d be more disturbed by an eventual black hole scenario where through every black hole was like another potential like full-blown like universe that may be doing its own thing.
[0:53:36 – 0:53:36] Erik: I don’t know.
[0:53:37 – 0:53:37] Adam: Yeah.
[0:53:38 – 0:53:42] Erik: If that’s anywhere close to a real possibility, I have no idea.
[0:53:42 – 0:53:44] Erik: And I don’t think anybody else does either.
[0:53:46 – 0:53:46] Adam: No.
[0:53:46 – 0:53:54] Adam: I mean, really, when you are thinking on scales of this magnitude, it’s a little overwhelming.
[0:53:54 – 0:53:54] Erik: Yeah.
[0:53:55 – 0:53:56] Erik: Yeah, no, it…
[0:53:58 – 0:53:58] Erik: Yeah.
[0:53:58 – 0:54:02] Adam: But there probably is a Minnesota out there where it’s still the old growth forest.
[0:54:03 – 0:54:08] Adam: And the moose are thriving and there’s no white-tailed deer or brain worm to be found.
[0:54:09 – 0:54:13] Adam: And there’s also probably a Minnesota out there which is already back to prairie.
[0:54:13 – 0:54:14] Adam: Yeah.
[0:54:14 – 0:54:20] Adam: And then there’s our Minnesota, which we happen to be lucky to live in, which is a great place.
[0:54:20 – 0:54:22] Adam: And there’s still some moose around.
[0:54:22 – 0:54:25] Adam: And I’ve gotten to see a moose this year, so…
[0:54:27 – 0:54:32] Adam: You know, I’m pretty fortunate, I would say, to have that.
[0:54:32 – 0:54:37] Adam: Even though I also was here 20 years ago and you’d see them all the time and it does hurt.
[0:54:37 – 0:54:43] Adam: Then it does make me sad that they’re kind of going away and there’s probably nothing I can really do about it.
[0:54:43 – 0:54:45] Erik: Yeah, not really.
[0:54:46 – 0:54:47] Adam: But, you know.
[0:54:49 – 0:55:00] Adam: I would just say anybody listening to this, whether it’s in 2024 or in 2054 or beyond, that if you are on a Boundary Waters trip and you get to see a moose, it’s a blessing.
[0:55:00 – 0:55:02] Adam: And you should take it as such.
[0:55:02 – 0:55:13] Adam: And I hope that everybody out there truly understands how difficult it is for a population like that to really make it in a wilderness like this that we have now made for them.
[0:55:13 – 0:55:13] Adam: Yeah.
[0:55:14 – 0:55:18] Adam: Uh, it’s pretty incredible, honestly, that any of us have been able to see that.
[0:55:18 – 0:55:30] Adam: And as I talked about in the beginning of the first part of the moose series, that like unmistakable feeling of paddling around the corner and seeing a moose on shore, it’s like one of the best things you can ever see in the boundary waters.
[0:55:31 – 0:55:36] Adam: And one of the thing, like, that’s the kind of story you want to be able to tell people like about this place, uh,
[0:55:37 – 0:56:00] Adam: but it is one of those things that’s just almost impossible to describe with words yeah um it’s almost always the first thing somebody tells you about when they come back from a trip though yeah it’s like that feeling you get in your chest and like on the edges of your skin when you see one of those beasts and uh they are it’s like very few things in this world can be both like
[0:56:02 – 0:56:22] Adam: serenity and also very scary like to see them up close like that yeah in a canoe or yeah like there’s such peaceful side with them and they can most people picture them as like dopey peaceful beasts but they’re also like alarmingly scary
[0:56:22 – 0:56:35] Adam: oh yeah uh and you have to respect that just like the sheer size of them i mean it’s just an electricity you like almost like i said it’s impossible to describe it with words seeing one of them in the field so
[0:56:37 – 0:56:38] Adam: I think we’ll leave it there.
[0:56:39 – 0:56:39] Erik: Sure.
[0:56:39 – 0:56:48] Adam: As we’ve often said on this show over the years, and I feel like it more and more, I truly feel like this is true.
[0:56:49 – 0:56:52] Adam: Maybe it started as a joke, but it does feel really true right now.
[0:56:53 – 0:56:56] Adam: Life is precious, and every day is a miracle, Eric.
[0:56:56 – 0:56:57] Erik: I am a miracle.
[0:56:57 – 0:57:00] Erik: I used to have a church in high school that said that.
[0:57:00 – 0:57:02] Erik: And I still wish I knew where it was.
[0:57:04 – 0:57:05] Erik: And every day is a miracle.
[0:57:05 – 0:57:06] Erik: And all of you are miracles.
[0:57:06 – 0:57:20] Erik: And the fact that we are all here sharing the same space, the moment, the fleeting moment in the grand scale of the universe that happens to include stars and heat and energy.
[0:57:21 – 0:57:22] Erik: Yeah.
[0:57:22 – 0:57:36] Erik: Little floating rocks that have found a way to, or at least one floating rock that has managed to evolve itself into a place that has moose walking around on it.
[0:57:36 – 0:57:36] Erik: That’s crazy.
[0:57:36 – 0:57:37] Erik: At the same time we are.
[0:57:38 – 0:57:38] Erik: Yeah.
[0:57:38 – 0:57:38] Erik: Yeah.
[0:57:39 – 0:57:40] Erik: It’s pretty fortunate that.
[0:57:41 – 0:57:41] Adam: Yeah.
[0:57:41 – 0:57:45] Adam: This seems wrong almost that human beings and moose could be on the same planet.
[0:57:45 – 0:57:47] Adam: Yeah.
[0:57:47 – 0:57:47] Adam: Here we are.
[0:57:47 – 0:57:49] Erik: Here we are at the same time.
[0:57:49 – 0:57:50] Adam: Thank you for listening.
[0:57:50 – 0:57:51] Adam: Thank you, Eric, for being here.
[0:57:52 – 0:57:56] Adam: And check the show notes if you’re at all interested in what we’ve discussed tonight.
[0:57:57 – 0:58:01] Adam: We’ll link that down there in the show notes and go ahead and read them for yourself.
[0:58:01 – 0:58:02] Adam: It’s pretty interesting stuff.
[0:58:03 – 0:58:13] Erik: We’ll do a direct link to the sanitary sterile poop bag too if anybody out there needs that for field research on their own.
[0:58:13 – 0:58:14] Adam: Absolutely.
[0:58:14 – 0:58:18] Adam: They are hiring also if anybody’s looking for a career path.
[0:58:18 – 0:58:21] Erik: Wow, a career path, not just a summer job.
[0:58:21 – 0:58:22] Erik: This is a career.
[0:58:22 – 0:58:24] Adam: These bags are serious business.
[0:58:24 – 0:58:26] Adam: They take themselves seriously, and so should you.
[0:58:27 – 0:58:27] Adam: All right.
[0:58:28 – 0:58:33] Adam: Thanks for being here tonight, Eric, in the shed, and we’re going to get on out of here.
[0:58:34 – 0:58:35] Adam: Arrivederci.
[0:58:37 – 0:58:38] Adam: Bless the moose.
[0:58:49 – 0:59:02] SPEAKER_00: As if someone was watching over it Before it was As if response was based on facts Providing it, deciding it It was to them Square to it, face to it
[0:59:17 – 0:59:19] SPEAKER_00: It was not there.
[0:59:19 – 0:59:25] SPEAKER_00: Renewed its thoughts, as if it had a cause to live for.
[0:59:25 – 0:59:30] SPEAKER_00: Denied it learned, as if it had someone.
[0:59:47 – 0:59:48] SPEAKER_00: Bye.
[0:59:48 – 0:59:49] SPEAKER_00: Bye.
[0:59:49 – 0:59:49] SPEAKER_00: Bye.
[1:00:14 – 1:00:14] UNKNOWN: Thank you.
